In mid-December I was asked by a friend to accompany him, his son and son-in-law to visit a South Texas ranch to help the manager cull some white tail bucks.  This property was 10,000 acres in western Webb County (west of Encinal).

The recent history of this ranch was of hardly any shooting of inferior antlered deer.  An absentee landowner with little interest in hunting had turned the place over to some lease hunters that were high-grading the bucks.  That’s a term for shooting only deer with large antlers.  The biggest antlered bucks were taken annually no matter their age.  If a 12 point 3 year old was standing by a 9 point 6 year old the young buck was killed because it had the largest antlers.  The old buck with little antlers lived to spread his genes in the herd.  This group of lease hunters kept that practice going for at least 7 years.

At this point a new ranch employee appeared on the scene who was the cattle manager.  He saw the pattern and suggested to the owner these lease hunters needed to be removed.  With that task accomplished the owner switched to package hunting the bucks with outfitters.  Over the next 6-7 years the high grading of young bucks with good antlers continued.  Outfitters did not worry about the future of hunting on this property.  All they wanted to do is run fresh hunters in and out and have these clients smiling with big horns on their advertisement fliers.  The ranch manager saw the problem and went through several outfitters and all had the same attitude.

Now what is staring the ranch manager in the face, is a property that has basically protected the sorriest antlered bucks for 12-15 years.  Of course, those bucks were breeding doe and these grandmothers, mothers, sisters and daughters were offspring of bucks with poor-quality antlers–a mess if you are trying to grow trophy deer.

So, our goal was to shoot one or more “cull” bucks.  As a guest, I certainly did not want to make a mistake on a free hunt.  I wanted to be double sure before I pulled the trigger.  Here is where I learned another lesson in deer culling.

I sat in a great blind that had senderos in 5 directions.  Corn was dispersed out to 300 yards.  All types of deer were around me EXCEPT trophy bucks.  Plenty of doe, fawns, young and middle aged bucks with small antlers.  One buck in particular had me puzzled.

Here was a buck that had 6 total points (no brow tines).  His rack is what I call “Jersey-horned”.  It looked like horns on a Jersey milk cow.  His body was small.  As this deer nibbled corn next to a no-doubt 1.5 year old spike with antlers about like a Beyer extra strength aspirin, I could compare their relative sizes.  The 6 point outweighed the 1.5 year old spike perhaps 15 lbs. max.  The 6 point’s body was at most one foot taller and one foot longer.  When the two bucks stood apart, they seemed to be the same size.  Only when side by side could you see the difference.  At a casual glance, the average hunter could identify the spike as a cull and the 6 point the classic example of a good genetic buck that was bigger than his classmate and the 6 point should be left alone to mature.  Something bothered me though.

The 6 point buck acted differently.  When doe came out, he would trot toward them with the sneaky-sneer approach.  His spike buddy had absolutely no interest in doe.  The 6 point buck bristled up and strutted when any type buck approached.  He walked off the sendero and thrashed a bush then made a scrape.  This little guy was acting exactly like a mature deer yet he was a runt.

I decided to shoot him so my 270 made it easy.  The first thing I did when I walked up to the dead buck was check his teeth.  Although this guy had the body of a yearling he was a solid 5.5 years old.  This was the first time in my over 57 years of hunting whitetail deer that I have ever made a decision to shoot an old cull buck not by the physical characteristics of the body and antlers but by the deer’s actions.  The deer acted old and he was.  My hunch was right.  You are never too old to learn.

Over the years, I’ve done my fair share of guiding whitetail deer hunters.  I will write to re-tell some of my funniest stories sometime. However, the purpose of this novel today is to hopefully impress upon anyone that is going on a guided hunt to listen to their guide.

I’m currently filling in as a guide when needed on a Hill Country property—game fenced probably 1,200 acres and the deer are WILD.  True, some of the deer can be easily patterned and routinely appear at certain blinds/feeders, but when the rut is kicking in such as now (November 14^th), all bets are off.  Old bucks are restless and active.

This particular ranch has the majority of mature bucks in the 125-135 gross Boone and Crockett scoring system range.  There are a few that creep up to the 140-150 range.  Perhaps one or two will be as high as 160+.

A company has the ranch leased for employees and business clients.  On select weekends, two to as many of eight hunters hit the property for a three-day hunt.  All hunters have marching orders they can take a mature buck ranging from 120 to 160 B&C.  These hunters all have a guide since the ranch policy is to NEVER turn the general public loose.  When I greet the hunters at the camp house  as they are unloading their gear, the common phrase uttered from the hunter is, “I’m here to take a 160 class buck!”

On my last hunt, I was guiding a man from southern Louisiana.  The largest buck he has ever taken was an 8-pointer that was the size of you holding your hands in the form of antlers and your thumbs touching.  When I told the guy those 160 class bucks are far and few between, it did not matter.

The very first hunt we had a wide 9-point show up.  He really stood out for the width of his antlers.  Like most wide antlered deer, the tine length was short so the deer would not score high.  Our conversation went like this:

“Hey.  Check out that guy approaching from the east.  He’s wide.”

The hunter had binoculars glued to his head and was starting to breathe heavy. “Wow, that’s the widest buck I’ve ever seen!”

“All I can say is you will not see a wider deer on this ranch.”

“What will it score? “

“It will not score high because of short tines.  Width is outstanding and beam length will be good but short tines will dampen the score.  My guess is 120 or slightly higher.  If I miss on a score it is usually on the low end.”

“I think I’ll pass.”

“I recommend shooting. Hunting conditions are horrible now.  Full moon, hot and dusty, plus a record live oak acorn crop have most deer laid up all day.  Movement is slow and the deer are not coming to corn well.  Odds are stacked against you.  Better look again.”

“I will hold out for something better.”

“You may regret it but we’ll keep after them and try our best.”

We hunted two more days and never saw a mature buck close to this one.  Two other hunters went to that blind and the buck never showed up.  My hunter went home empty handed when he could have had a 9 point buck with outside spread between 22-24”.  Keep in mind the largest buck he has ever taken had about a 13” spread.

Please re-read the title of this story.

See photo of buck.

Oh boy.  If ever I have opened a can of worms, this is it.  I’m sure there will be readers nodding their heads in agreement, but also sure there will be some that will curse me and everything associated with me over this topic.  I do know this has been the most often asked question I get at deer camps scattered across the state when the day is over, supper has been enjoyed, dishes washed and a night downer is in hand while everyone is staring at the coals of the dying camp fire.  Here goes…………………

What you are about to read is my opinion. This is based on reading a lot of research material and having first-hand discussions with many of the people doing the actual research on deer genetics.  I am also weighing in observations I have over 30 years of watching what has happened in real life situations in South and Central Texas. I think I can encapsulate this topic best by using facts.

Fact One:  The Kerr Wildlife Management Area deer genetic research is the longest-running study with the most animals used anywhere in the world.

Fact Two:  The Kerr study found antler genetics are hereditary.  This basically means the size and often the shape of the father’s antlers impacts the size and shape of its offspring. There is no disputing this.

Fact Three:  The Kerr study PLUS those done at Mississippi State University, in Arkansas, in Georgia and some in the wild of South TX where deer were captured by helicopter nets, released and recaptured in later years have all shown conclusively that a spike yearling, on AVERAGE, will never grow to the size his same-aged brothers will grow when his brothers have 4-5-6-7-8+ antler points.   A spike starts out smaller and ends up smaller. All studies show this.

There were examples of a few INDIVIDUAL bucks that started as spikes that grew into nice trophies.  These examples were plucked out of the pack.  Remember when managing a wild herd of deer, you have to deal with averages.

So, if you wish to increase the average size of the deer on your ranch or in your wildlife management area, over a long period of time, it will help to get rid of the smallest yearling bucks you are growing, which are usually spikes.  You cannot argue against this.  Please re-read fact three.

I wish I could remember the name of the professor of genetics from Texas A&M University School of Vet. Medicine but I can’t.  He showed me the attached graphs and these graphs hold true for any animal or plant.

All three graphs show the number of 1.5 year old bucks in my example herd on the vertical axis and the size of the yearlings measured by antler points of the horizontal axis.  For this example, I show 10 spikes, about twenty-five 4-pointers and about five 7 and 8+ point yearlings.

In the second graph, I show with the angle cross hatches all spikes being killed out of the herd.

In the third graph, I show what the numbers look like with no spikes in the herd.  If all spikes are removed, the AVERAGE SIZE INCREASES.   This is a statistical fact.  This graph could be used on the size of elephants, butterflies or corn stalks.  It does not matter.

Over time and I mean a long, long time, if a manager systematically removed the smallest 10% of the bucks out of his/her deer herd, the average size would increase.

You have to use your heads folks.  When the Kerr study first came out the spike harvest idea was abused in some instances.  What would happen if you were hunting a deer herd that was overcrowded and half starved?  Due to lack of food, 90% of the yearling bucks had spikes.  If a person shot every spike he/she could find, in that instance the herd would be damaged.  This would be a big mistake.

You need to know what you have.  What happens when your herd is in outstanding shape – just the opposite of the above? Let’s say a manager has a yearling herd and the smallest buck yearling has 4 points.  If you wanted to move your quality upward, in this instance it may not hurt to knock out all 4 pointers, leaving the 5+ antler point yearlings to mature.

I like to shoot the sorriest or smallest 10-15% of my yearlings every year.  If I am sitting on a wheat patch watching 30 deer and I see what I call an “aspirin head” spike grazing next to a banana shaped antler spike, a 5 point yearling and a 7 point yearling, I shoot the aspirin head spike.  An aspirin head spike has hard usually white antlers about 1/2” long.  You have to look real close.  With the hair on the animal’s scalp, all that shows is something white that looks like an extra-strength Bayer aspirin.  That deer is the same age as the long-horned spike.  Which has the potential to be better when it matures?  If two spikes are standing side by side, shoot the one with the shortest spikes.  Do not approach this thinking the long horned spike is older, it is not.  In my 55+ years of shooting spikes, I have seen only one animal that I was 100% sure was a 2 year old deer.  Moral of the story – all spikes are yearlings.

Now, the dialog written so far has been aimed at attempting to increase the size of bucks in your herd by culling out the smaller bucks.  You may not want to.  If you are after maximum dollars from a hunting operation, then shooting spikes may not pay off.  Some landowners and managers operate hunting camps that are paid by the deer killed and by the size.  A 2-3 year old small 7-8 point buck with a 11” spread, which was probably a spike as a yearling, will bring more money to the bottom dollar than having killed that deer as a spike.  You will not be driving the quality upwards but the manager of the above example ranch could care less.

In the late 1980’s, I hunted on a property in Maverick County for two years.  The deer on this ranch were like large Hill Country deer.  I got off and wish I hadn’t.  The Biologist managing this low fenced property implemented an aggressive spike culling regimen along with very aggressive doe harvest rules.  The density was low, but 15-20 years later, some of the largest bucks killed in South Texas were regularly taken on this property.  This is one real life proof that culling works.

In 2006 through 2008 I was involved in managing a large South Texas ranch in southern Kinney County.  This property had been hunted hard by day leasing for 30+ years prior to my introduction to the land.  The previous owners had an 8 point rule in place.  Any and all bucks could be killed if it had 8 points or better.  What happened was all spikes were protected and the best yearlings killed when they reached 2.5 years old.  Take another look at my graphs and reverse the pressure.  Remove the top antlers from your herd every year.   Very few doe were killed.  30+ years of killing off the best genetics and leaving the sorriest yearlings was something to behold. What I found was a skewed buck doe ratio and a buck herd with some of the sorriest antlers I have ever seen on a ranch with good habitat.  It was common to see old broad-backed mature bucks with heavy based 6 points and a 10” spread.Pitiful but proof culling worked in reverse.

In 1990, Harvey’s Creek Wildlife Management Association was formed between Weimar and Columbus, Texas.  Most landowners followed the TPWD recommendations of killing spikes.  We did on our family ranch and I know our neighbors did.  Now, 26 years later, some of the largest antlers taken in Colorado County are coming off the original Co-op member ranches.  The quality of the bucks taken the last few years could not be imagined back in 1990.  It takes time but it works.

One final angle……. This is for those that state spikes should be protected and will grow into trophies.  Everyone has seen these mega-antlered bucks that have been grown in pens from genetically selected bucks and doe.  See if you can find any of these operations that brag about having spikes as first antlered bucks and see if these operations advertise that they have spikes for sale.

I realize I am sticking my neck out with this topic but nonetheless, I intend to delve into the subject.  All that follows will be my personal observations sprinkled with the logic of my thoughts.  I want to warn my gentle readers that if you are offended by bloody descriptions, you better stop now.

Let me also preface this story by saying I have been reloading my own centerfire cartridges since I was in junior high.  I have always had a keen interest in how the different bullets I have used performed terminally upon impact.  I have used Hornady, Sierra, Speer, Nosler and Barnes reloads.  I have used Remington, Winchester and Federal factory bullets as well.  Bullet weights from 50 grains to 200 grains in all type configurations from spritzer, boat tail, round nose, hollow point, flat points, ballistic tips, spire points, bronze points, silvertips, solids and partitions.  I was and still am observant and curious about where the bullet went, what it did while passing through the animal and why it did what it did.  I always factor in distance and speed of the bullet in all of my examinations.

I am convinced the best shot placement for deer or any wild game ungulate (elk, moose, pronghorn, sheep, African antelope, etc.) is for the bullet to pass through the animals lungs on a more or less broadside animal just over the animal’s heart.  Have you ever paid attention or taken interest in examining the organs of a dead deer?  The heart is topped with several very large veins and arteries the size of your thumb.  Sever these without actually hitting the heart, and there is immediate and massive hemorrhaging resulting in an extremely quick blood pressure drop and an almost immediate loss of consciousness due to lack of oxygen to the brain.  The circulatory system of the animal is basically drained.  You want the heart to remain intact to continue pumping so the shot cannot be too low.

The animal will usually hop/jump/lunge when hit.  Sometimes the deer will kick then take off.  Usually the death run will be a lope or struggling gate if one of the shoulder or leg bones are broken on a slight angle shot.  If you observe these mortally wounded deer through their entire death run in open country, the last few yards will often be a semicircle or the animal will stagger as if it was drunk.  At that point, the animal is basically running blind and its momentum and reflexes are the only thing keeping it in gear.  Always, when you approach a deer hit solidly as I described above, it will be stone dead with glazed eyes by the time you reach it.

On a perfectly broadside animal, an angle where you are seeing both front legs as one leg – perfectly aligned at a right angle to your view, the bullet should impact tight behind the shoulder and about 1” to 2” below the center point or halfway distance between the deer’s back and brisket.  On an animal like that, I like to align my vertical cross hair along the back edge of its front leg.  It gets a little trickier when the deer is standing at an angle, which they normally are.  With that, you have to be able to envision what the organs look like in the deer’s chest.  Always attempt to get the bullet to pass through both lungs and as close to the top of the heart as possible – therein lye the concentration of major veins and arteries.  If a deer is positioned at a severe angle almost facing you are quartering away, I will wait for a better presentation.

I know.  I know.  At least half if not more of the people reading this will pooh, pooh my opinion thinking, “The neck and head shot is best for a quick kill!”  Not so and here’s why…………………..  Keep in mind I have shot plenty of deer in the neck so have ample comparisons.  Let’s look at what happens through a more scientific lens.  I am not a veterinarian but have taken my fair share of biology courses.

What happens when a bullet crashes into a deer’s neck vertebrae?   The spine is usually severed by either the bullet or fragments of bone.  The deer is paralyzed and drops in its tracks.  I have no answer for this but for some reason, when a deer is neck shot, the hindquarters drop a split second before the front of the animal).   A severed spinal cord cuts off the message the brain sends to lower muscles and organs such as the heart. An animal’s heart beats because the brain is sending a pulse signal to the heart unconsciously.  No animal “makes” its heart beat by thinking about it.  It beats all day, every day and night as long as it gets the signal.  So, the heart stops.  At that point, blood quits moving but unlike an animal shot near the heart where the blood gushes out of the circulatory system, draining blood from all organs, a neck shot deer has blood pooled in all of its organs and muscle.  The only blood leaving a neck shot deer where the spine has been severed is due to gravity.  This pooled blood remaining in the animal contains enough oxygen to keep the brain functioning for a longer time than a deer shot through the lungs.  The deer dies more slowly.

Every lung shot deer I approach is dead.  At least half of the neck- shot deer I have approached had their mouths agape and looking at me with terrified eyes.  You get a knife to cut their juggler vein and no blood escapes because the heart has stopped.  You sometimes get a stout stick to club them to speed the death along.  I have put neck shot deer in the back of my truck for transporting to a cleaning station and they have been kicking tools and coolers in the bed of my truck half way to the camp house.  You tell me which is more humane.

Now I want to throw ice water on the neck shot is best clan when they argue, “Yea, but at least with the neck shot you get cleaner meat!”  I want to make this challenge.  Shoot a deer through the lungs, near but not through the heart.  Shoot a deer in the neck.  Clean both and hang them side by side.  I will bet you $10.00 to a donut the lung shot deer will have the “prettiest” meat.  The deer shot though the lungs will have pink meat.  The deer shot through the head or neck will have meat almost maroon-like color.  The neck shot deer has the darker meat due to pooled blood in all of the muscle tissue.

Lastly, the neck shot promoters often say they either hit or miss, no wounded animals like a flubbed body shot.  Wrong again.  A deer facing sideways can have its trachea torn and run off as if completely missed.  No blood but a seriously hurt animal.  A deer facing towards a hunter can have an ice cream sized scoop of muscle gouged off the side of its neck if the bullet is not center punched.

The head shot is the absolute worst in the business.   I cannot not stand that and speak from experience.  Advocates of head shots often brag the fact trying I suppose to impress upon their camp fire buddies at a hunting camp how accurate a sniper they are.  I have shot two deer in the head, wounding them hideously when I was young.  Both had their nose and mouth shot off and ran away with half their faces hanging like a limp glove.  Never found them.  That experience cured me.  I once killed a mature buck that was a walking skeleton.  Envision the black and white movies of the Nazi prison camps of WWII.  The buck was in pitiful condition of skin and bones.  The animal was staggering along with its lower jaw torn off.  It had been wounded by a neighboring hunter. I put him out of its misery near a pond.  It obviously could not eat but was attempting to drink water by putting what remained of its face, all the way up to its eyes, under water and sucking down some moisture.  Do not shoot for the head.  Thank you.

One of the first blogs I wrote for my website dealt with the common habit of new landowners mowing too much.  I called it “The Golf Course Syndrome”.  I lectured readers not to shred in the spring because that destroyed fawning cover and turkey nesting cover.  Well, now (August/September) is the time that shredding weeds becomes acceptable.  Let me explain……

Young turkey and fawns are large enough and mobile enough now to have a chance against predators. Taking that cover away will not affect them near as much as when they were babies.  Also, during late summer, weeds are mature and their leaves have little if any nutritional value.  Shredding at this time of the year not only makes your pasture look good, but if you are lucky enough to get a timely rain shower or two after shredding, weeds will begin to sprout new growth. That new growth is what deer relish. Those new leaves and growing buds have as high of a protein content as the plant had in early spring.

Over my lifetime, I’ve experimented with dozens of different summer food plot plants.  I mostly concentrated on different types of peas and clovers.  None work as well as the weeds you already have in your pasture.  I have shredded weeds in August and September then smiled broadly after rains hit and I saw grass and weeds begin new growth and while doing census work during those times noticed deer concentrated on the areas I shredded.   In one of my earlier lives I had a couple of chicken houses.  Tons of manure (fertilizer) was distributed annually on our ranch.  The best summer food plot I’ve ever seen was fertilized and shred western ragweed.

Late summer is also a time when deer, hogs, birds, squirrels and raccoons get their dessert.  Two important plants in Southeast Texas that most wildlife enjoys during late summer are mustang grapes (Vitis mustangensis) and American beautyberry (Callicarpa americana).

American beautyberry has very obvious purple berries that the aforementioned animals eat.  The seeds are maturing now and often last well into the fall.  This plant usually grows in sandy soils and areas that are shaded. I have seen deer that were gorging on the seeds and they had purple lips.  They reminded me of a kid eating a grape snow cone.

Another highly relished “dessert” is mustang grapes. When ripe and falling, these grapes are sweet.  People have been making wine and jelly from mustang grapes for generations. They are not like store-bought grapes in that they have a thick and tough outer skin.  You do not eat that.  The way to eat a mustang grape is pluck a ripe one, gently squeeze the skin allowing the meat of the grape ooze out.  Delicately bite that WITHOUT getting any juice on your hands or lips.  That juice will itch like crazy.  The grape to me has a texture like Jell-O. Be careful not to eat the seed.  There are usually 3-4 seeds in each grape.

Having some grape vines on your ranch is an obvious benefit for wildlife.  Like many things however, having too much of one thing is bad.  If left unchecked, grape vines will grow to eventually smother the plant it is using for support.  Although grapes are good, I would rather have the live oak tree it might smother.

I assume everyone knows that a deer’s antlers, or a deer’s “horns”, are grown and shed each year.  Antlers begin growth the end of March here in Southeast Texas and are fully formed in late July.  By the end of August, the velvet or hairy covering is rubbed clean.  I’ve seen bucks one day with velvet and the same deer one day later with taters of velvet hanging from their antlers and the antlers themselves are literally blood red.  From that point on a buck will be ready to breed doe.   Antlers are shed or cast starting in January and all have fallen off usually by late February.  Within a few weeks new growth begins.

It may surprise most people to note that the early development of antler material is high in water but the dry matter is mostly protein.  Studies in Michigan showed June antler material in healthy one-year-old bucks contained 80% protein.

It is hard to believe a complete set of antlers will be fully formed in five months.  That’s fast! Growth actually occurs at the tip.  As antlers grow, maturation involves ossification as the antlers approach their definitive shape.  As the final antler shape is coming into focus, there is an internal remodeling that results in replacement of the outermost spongy bone with compact bone.  There is no marrow in antlers as is found in an animal’s long bones.

Research has proven that antlers require a net accumulation of about 0.5 to 1.0 grams of calcium and 0.25 to 0.5 grams of phosphorus per day.  Most feed manufacturers selling pellet deer feed strive for that 2-1 ratio of calcium to phosphorous.  Other studies have proven that the rapid antler growth is such a drain on a buck’s system that the bone minerals needed for antler s were mobilized and robbed from the buck’s skeleton in order to meet this calcium/phosphorus antler need.  What puzzles many scientists however is that studies of mule deer have shown this bone mineral mobilization still occurs even when dietary minerals were high in existing plants the deer consumed.  This osteoporosis has been confirmed by measurements of bone density in three different studies.  Trabecular bone is the most metabolically active and resorption reached 25% of rib minerals during the middle period of antler growth.  Deer bone returns to normal shortly after antler growth is complete.

So, we know protein is needed.  We know calcium and phosphorous are needed and antler growth is so rapid, the deer robs these minerals from its own skeleton in order to “feed” the antler growth.  Some ranchers or managers may believe all they need to do is provide good water, shade and bags of feed that is high in protein with enough balanced calcium and phosphorus in it and they can grow giant deer on the Astrodome parking lot.  As always, in steps Mother Nature.

Vitamin A is also vital for antler remodeling as ossification proceeds.  Carotenes in green leaves are converted to Vitamin A. Growing trophy animals is ALWAYS easier on a ranch with  good habitat that will give a buck that native green to make its rumen bacteria happy and smooth out all the mineral movement that is involved in growing a trophy set of antlers.

There have been entire books devoted to antler growth.  Condensing it into a single post is impossible.  If your goal is trophy antlers, the simple recipe one needs to remember is to provide a habitat that is not overgrazed by too many deer and livestock and supplement that native forage with protein.  Deer will always take the native food first. When protein is lacking, they will appreciate the hand-out of sack feed.  Now is the time.

On a side note…

Antlers are the fasting growing tissue in the world.  Some research has been done with antlers trying to gain insight on certain types of fast-growing cancers.

Of all the world’s deer families, moose are the largest.  Of the several sub-species of moose, the Alaskan moose is the largest of the lot.  In the short growing season in the northern latitudes where Alaskan moose live, it’s hard to believe their paddle-like antlers can reach spreads exceeding 70 inches wide.  The weight is incredible.

I once guided a man from Alaska in South TX.  He was after a trophy whitetail but as you might imagine, I was picking his brain the entire time regarding wildlife in his home state.  He was an avid hunter.

The one tidbit I vividly remember him telling me was one characteristic he uses to judge trophy moose.  The trait he looked for more than any other was the angle of the antler growth as it leaves the moose’s head.  He explained all trophy moose will have a dip or downward curve at the base of the antler or where the antler is attached to the scull.  Reason: As the antler is growing and still soft /spongy and somewhat pliable, the weight of the antlers cause the base to actually sag or bend downward.  About halfway through antler development, the bend is corrected and the antlers start growing outward normally.  I was in Cabela’s near Buda and studied all of the giant moose heads in their store and this trait was clearly seen.  I never knew that.